♪ ♪ ♪ >> Christian F. Nunes, president of the National Organization for Women, next on "The Chavis Chronicles."

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♪ ♪ >> We're very pleased to welcome Christian F. Nunes.

Thank you for joining us on "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you for having me today.

>> I always like to start, tell us where you're from.

Understand you're from the great state of Texas.

>> Yes, I was born and raised in Houston, Texas, until about the age of 12.

And then my mother and my brothers and I relocated to Phoenix, Arizona.

>> Tell us about NOW, the National Organization for Women.

What is the mission of NOW?

>> So, the mission of NOW is to do intersectional feminist work.

We are a grassroots organization, and we work from an intersectional feminist approach to do legislative advocacy, education, and awareness to help make sure that we are promoting work, that's empowering women through feminist ideals that are going to improve the best life for women.

We want to make sure we're improving the quality of life for women, that's doing the best that we can to promote women's advocacy and gender equality.

And so that's really the work that we're doing.

And our basic work is to make sure that we're doing it from an anti-racist and intersectional perspective.

>> You are the second African-American woman to be national president of NOW.

>> Yes.

>> What are your top-three priorities for NOW, going forward?

>> Well, my first priority, what I ran on in my campaign, was definitely to make NOW a multiracial, multigenerational, intersectional organization.

You know, this is a new time.

And if we're going to be true and authentic to our purpose of how NOW was founded, we cannot succeed and be truthful to our work of being an intersectional organization if we don't reflect our vision and our mission.

So that's my first priority, to make sure that we're empowering and uplifting the voices of all women and girls.

And part of that, we have to reflect what we have looked like, what we are trying to do.

So that's my first priority.

And my second priority is making sure that the legislation that we are pushing is also truthful to our mission statement that has to reflect our true value and our true mission.

And that's very important to us.

And holding elected officials accountable.

We have to do that.

If we are just coming in -- And we cannot just sign on to anything.

It has to be valuable.

They have to make sure that they are holding true to their word.

Their voting records have to reflect what they're saying they're doing when they're coming to us.

And we need to make sure that we're doing that in everything we do.

And being a part of coalitions that are like-minded and really doing valuable work.

>> Well, I know that the National Organization for Women has been very involved in GOTV, getting out the vote.

>> Absolutely.

>> How do you see the role of women in the political inclusiveness of America's future democracy?

>> Women are, like, one of the largest voting blocs, you know, and women, especially women of color, have been part of helping sustain democracy and making sure progressives are helping save our democracy.

So women are what we need to help us continue making sure we are saving and putting out the best needs of our communities.

So women are essential to making sure that we are doing our best to get out the needs of our constituents, get out the needs of the people.

And we are extremely important to helping save this democracy in this country, if you want my personal opinion.

And so part of that is that we have to make sure that we are electing strong feminist candidates and women into office.

It makes no sense that we are relying on women to help run our campaigns, help run our country, help run our communities, but we're not electing enough women into office.

So if we can do all that, we need to make sure that we're electing strong feminist leaders to help become part of leading this country so we're putting forth strong legislation.

>> Since 1966, when NOW was first founded, each year, more and more women have been elected at the state level, at the federal level.

How do you see this trend?

Has there been a steady increase, or do you see there's been ups and downs?

>> There has been an increase.

But if you think about it, we're only at 24%.

>> Overall.

>> Overall, since -- >> Of all elected officials?

>> Of all elected officials.

And, you know, that's talking about local, state, and federal.

And that is, you know, and if we actually looked at statistics of all countries, we're ranked 72% of 186 countries.

Rwanda ranks higher than us.

A lot of countries that we would not even imagine rank higher than us with more women elected into office.

>> Well, I want to make sure our listening audience understands what you just said.

The United States, compared to other countries in the world, on the question of women being included in electoral offices, how does the United States rank?

>> Number 72 out of 186.

And what we think about when we think about women and, you know, countries -- And I use more countries that are not as industrialized -- right?

-- as the United States.

And we think of -- people think America as the country of the American dream and places where women have more freedom.

America is only 72.

So America and women only hold 72 out of 186 positions in women running for office and having elected positions.

So, countries like Rwanda rank number 1, which means they have more women elected into office, 61%, but we only have 24%.

>> So we have a long ways to go in America.

>> We really do.

And what that means is, we have to invest more into women.

We have to put more effort in making sure that women have the equity, the support, and resources to be able to get elected, supported, and financially backed when it comes to being able to be elected into leadership positions in this country.

>> So, we have the first woman, first Black woman, to be vice president of the United States.

Took a long time for a woman even to get to that position.

>> Absolutely.

Yes.

And it's wonderful.

But at this point, we should've had a president by now.

>> Yes.

How does the public health of women, particularly from the disparities perspective, how are you addressing that to change some of these disparities?

>> I think it's really important to understand the juxtaposition between parity and disparity and how close that lies, because what happens is, there is a fine line.

We want to talk about that, but we have to talk about equity.

And what happens is, is that we are working very hard to talk about the importance of making sure that women can retain parity in these areas, but we have to talk about equity.

And there still is so much discrimination, and there is still so much bias that continues to create a distance for women to be able to get equality that we have to address those biases and discriminations that still exist in our system.

>> Explain how the National Organization for Women has a strategy to overcome these disparities so you can have parity and equity.

>> I think there's part -- two parts that has to happen.

There has to be education and awareness.

That's the first thing.

Because we have to start educating everyone, the public, about what really is existing and what's really contributing to it.

Because I think a big part is, people aren't really fully aware of how much disparity there is and what's causing and creating the disparity.

The disparity ranges from, you know, sex practices discriminate -- discriminatory sex practices that happen in employment places, in education, and laws.

You know, there are loopholes in legal practices and protections that contribute to these discriminations that don't protect women.

You know, we have -- we're still waiting for, you know, to be included in the Constitution.

Right?

You know, we're still fighting for equal rights -- the Equal Rights Amendment, so that women can fully be protected and enshrined into the Constitution so that we don't keep falling in the cracks in these protections, because that also has a large part in play.

And we also know that there are issues with protections, for legal protections for women.

And then we have to talk about the gender wage gap and where there's not full legal and transparency with employers protecting women so they can continue to pay women less, which continues to contribute to the gender wage gap.

If you don't have to have transparency, there's no accountability.

You can continue deciding to pay men more for the same job and pay women less.

So there is lots of ways we have to start continuing to educate and create awareness about what's really happening in these social inequities and discriminatory practices.

And the other part is, is that we have to continue to push for legislation that helps create equality and practice in legislation that will provide protections, like paid women -- a paid Family Medical Leave Act, Pregnancy Women's Fairness Act, you know, Medicare for all, things that will provide equality and equity for everyone that's equitable.

We have to stop thinking "equality" because everyone does not have the same advantages.

That's how we look at intersectional feminist approaches and intersectionality in our legislation.

>> You mentioned the Equal Rights Amendment.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> Now, many states have ratified it, but not enough states yet to make it part of the Constitution of the United States.

>> Actually has met all the requirements.

Everything has been met.

The problem is, we have to -- they're arguing over the time limit.

So all we need to do is have the Congress remove the time limit.

We need a vote.

That's all we need is a vote to remove the time limit so that it can be enshrined into the Constitution.

Every limit, time limit, everything has been met.

It's a matter of the Congress taking the stance to say that, "We're gonna take a vote to actually say that we're going to enshrine in the Constitution to protect women and make women equal under the law."

That's all it takes.

And what we keep running into is certain classes saying that "We don't want to do it."

So women are whole, but we're not whole under the Constitution.

And this continues to provide inequity and disparity with gender.

>> So, would you say, going forward, one of the priorities of the National Organization for Women is to finally get the Congress to pass the Equal Rights Amendment?

>> Absolutely.

That is one of them.

And the other one is, of course, making sure that we have livable wages.

We know that most women are earning lower wages.

There are still wages that are -- particularly gender wages -- in positions that are really governed and filled by women, and they earn 50% of the lower wages.

You know, essential workers, front-line workers.

And we're still fighting for livable wages.

Minimum wage hasn't been raised since 2009.

So, 2009, hasn't been raised.

People cannot survive off of that.

And poverty is most likely guaranteed to be overly recommended and overly guaranteed and fulfilled by women.

So when women are earning poverty and they're the ones who are fulfilling poverty the most over men, then we know women are going to be the ones who also have issues with meeting healthcare, receiving Medicaid, receiving lower wages are going to have the highest rates of not being able to meet their basic medical needs, being childcare.

And they're going to be the ones suffering the most.

And then that leads to health issues, that leads to other issues for them.

And so we have to really look at those things and how they all intertwine.

>> So another one of your priorities is to get equal pay for women passed by the Congress of the United States.

>> Absolutely.

>> Seems to me we need more women elected in state legislatures who will be more sensitive to the issues that impact the quality of life of women.

>> We absolutely have to be hyper local in our work -- in our work as well as federal.

It can't just be federal because the state level is where people are having the most direct impact on their daily lives.

And right now, what we're seeing, because on the federal level, we have not been able to codify and pass, you know, protections, then the states are going in extra hard, trying to make it difficult for women to get these protections.

Right now, we know that some of the Southern states, women are having to travel over 700 miles to get protections in some of these states.

And for those women who are already experiencing financial difficulty and already experiencing poverty, missing a day can mean becoming homeless.

Missing a day can mean suffering a miscarriage and suffering -- bleeding can mean dying.

So we have to really think about the impact of this.

And so what we have to do is we have to also work very hard to get people elected that are feminist, who believe in the importance of bodily autonomy and a woman's right to choose and a pregnant person's right to choose.

But we also have to work extremely hard to come into those states and challenge those draconian bills that are trying to take away a person's bodily autonomy and their free agency.

And if that means coming in and passing ballot measures, we have to do that.

And that means coming in and orchestrating and convening and mobilizing to try to make sure that we are doing everything in our power to fight against these things.

We have to do that.

A lot of this is education and talking to people.

Let them know exactly how these issues directly impact their lives.

Most people believe in a person's right to choose.

But what happens is, there is misinformation and disinformation campaigns that are happening.

They're trying to trick people.

So we have to come in ourselves and educate people about the truth.

And that's our job, and that's NOW's job, and we're gonna do it every single day.

We can't get defeated, we can't get frustrated because what we're seeing happening with our new House, you know, Congress, the congressional House.

We have to continue to push forward and making sure we're letting people know that we are here, we're going to do all our -- all our chances and all our power to organize and make sure everyone's prepared.

We're going to organize.

We have right now a program to elect and train new candidates, and we're going to do everything in our power to make sure that we're doing our best to protect women.

>> You mentioned earlier that the United States ranks 72 when it comes to overall equality for women.

How does the United States rank in the world on maternal health?

>> It's not the best.

I'm not sure of the exact statistic.

I'll have to check on that.

But it's also a major issue, as well, because, once again, we go back to the biases and the racialized inequalities and discrimination that we see in our systems.

You know, we know, particularly with Black women, Black maternal mortality is a huge issue in the United States, and Black women are dying daily from Black maternal mortality due to the treatment that they receive in the hospital, due to the hospital facilities where they are not getting the same adequate care.

And due to the stigma and the discrimination and biases they receive by just being ignored.

And so all these things together are compounding factors to why we have to continue to fight and why we know that these are issues that we have to continue to focus on.

And I think the other part that I want to point out, too, is just, in general, we know that women of color research is not based truly on women of color.

It's typically based on white women.

And so if we're not getting adequate research to be tested on us and research on us to make sure what we know that's affected and research evaluated in us to see what our best needs are, they can't truly find out the best treatments for us and what's the best resources and services that we need.

So that needs to happen, as well.

And I think those -- all of those things together need to be evaluated and taken forth with legislation so we're moving forward to provide the best services and funding, programming to help combat the Black maternal mortality.

I know personally, I remember when I had my son, I was high-risk.

I was 41, and I had a pre-existing condition with migraines, and I went in with migraines.

And my doctor knew, OB/GYN knew, and when I went in, personally, I went in, he told me to go into the urgent care -- the OB/GYN urgent care.

I went in, and they ignored me.

And it was the high-risk condition that could not be ignored.

>> Why do you think they ignored you?

>> As a Black woman.

They thought it wasn't a big issue.

They thought I was drug-seeking.

I was not drug-seeking.

I went in with a pre-existing condition, and they left me there, sitting in a room for hours, which could have produced a stroke.

And it wasn't until my OB/GYN came in.

And then I told him they had me sitting there, and then he had to, like, literally raise hell -- right?

-- to cause the issue.

And then, once he did that, then I got treated effectively.

But I shouldn't have had to go through that.

>> You've personally experienced these disparities, these discriminations, and it's all for treatment.

And that personal testimony of yours, I think, helps you to be a strong advocate... >> Right, yeah.

>> ...for social change and women's rights.

What can men do to support women's rights?

>> Well, I would first love to say that a man can be a feminist because part of being a feminist is believing that a woman deserves to have equality and be treated with dignity and have -- >> So a man can be a feminist.

>> A man can be a feminist.

And men are feminists, right?

If you believe in the woman's ability and the woman deserves to have equality and access to the same thing a man has.

So that's the first thing.

And men are -- can be effective and the best allies to making sure that women's equality and women's needs and resources are pushed through and we're represented and speaking up for us.

Because some of these spaces we need men to speak up in.

We need men to be the ones who say, "Hey, hold up.

This is not okay."

And so that's where a man can be an effective ally and also helping bring women to the table and also helping create space and correcting men and correcting others when they are misrepresenting women and they are also contributing to toxic masculinity and misogyny.

If they can be effective in canceling that out and calling it out and putting an end to it.

So this is where men can be very effective in this part of helping create a safe space for women and creating opportun-- and helping create opportunity for women to come in and flourish and shine as they will do.

Because we already have the skills.

We don't need the skills.

We need the opportunity to be safe and grow and foster.

>> You've mentioned that, as president of NOW, you're leading the organization in a more multiracial, multicultural, multilingual with the intersectionality.

What do you see are the trends?

Are you making headway?

Are you making gains?

Explain to us, under your leadership, what you see as the progress of NOW.

>> I absolutely do believe we're making progress.

I do believe that our organization is moving in that direction and seeing the importance of how we have to address everything as a whole.

We cannot address issues in silos.

We have to address issues in how they cross and how multiple different identities affect and lead, you know, and affect how a person is experiencing oppression and how they experience the world.

And I do believe our organization is starting to work from that framework and starting to move in that direction in how we advocate and how we -- and how we also address our advocacy and our leadership and our convening.

And it's making progress.

And I do believe that it is going in the right direction.

It takes time, you know, and we have to continue to move in a direction, and we have to continue to do our work, internal and external, to be effective.

But we will continue to do it, and we will continue to push and drive, and we will hold ourselves accountable, and we will continue to make sure that we continue to connect with other coalition partners who are in the same mind-set and moving in the same directions as us and who we can build with, and also be in solidarity with organizations who are experts in those areas that we have to be.

Because we are also allies, and we are not experts in some areas.

We have to align with the experts in certain areas and be in solidarity with them and let them lead and we be supportive of them.

>> Madam President of NOW, what gives you your greatest hope?

>> I believe in change.

I'm an optimist, and I believe that, ultimately, I think that the world wants peace and the world wants to see progress.

And I think that if we continue to work together and we continue to understand that we will do better together than we will apart, we will reach our ultimate goal.

And we have had great role models in the past that have shown us this and how far we have come from pushing and disrupting the negative, things that we did not want, we continue to disrupt, we will get to the place we want to be.

And so that gives me hope.

>> Christian F. Nunes, national president of the National Organization for Women, thank you for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Chavis.

>> For more information about "The Chavis Chronicles" and our guests, please visit our website at thechavischronicles.com.

Also, follow us on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.

Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, we are committed to diversity and understand our responsibility in supporting and empowering diverse communities.

Diversity and inclusion is integral to the way we work.

Supporting the financial health of our diverse customers and employees is one of the many ways we remain invested in inclusion for all, today, tomorrow, and in the future.

American Petroleum Institute.

Through the core elements of API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry in the U.S. and around the world.

You can learn more at api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to empowering people to choose how they live as they age.

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